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	<title>Comments on: Plagiarism #3</title>
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	<description>because this could also work...</description>
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		<title>By: epicurare</title>
		<link>http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/comment-page-1/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator>epicurare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s a simple accusation: &#039;Krog is a plagiarist&#039;. You can discuss the wiles and bile of Watson, culture wars, editorial shenanigans and so forth ad nauseum, without contributing an answer to this charge. In fact, at the risk of getting sidetracked in the way I&#039;m about to describe, Watson contributed to her defence by couching his accusation in just the kind of blunderbuss attack that dilutes his accusation in the same way that her selective responses and your extensive discussions have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a simple accusation: &#8216;Krog is a plagiarist&#8217;. You can discuss the wiles and bile of Watson, culture wars, editorial shenanigans and so forth ad nauseum, without contributing an answer to this charge. In fact, at the risk of getting sidetracked in the way I&#8217;m about to describe, Watson contributed to her defence by couching his accusation in just the kind of blunderbuss attack that dilutes his accusation in the same way that her selective responses and your extensive discussions have.</p>
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		<title>By: pointed</title>
		<link>http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/comment-page-1/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>pointed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Mar 2006 08:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/#comment-45</guid>
		<description>IT&#039;S A TURF WAR, AFTER ALL

Trying to reconcile the two articles on Krog in the M&amp;G this week, I was forced to the following conclusion: The issue of plagiarism is a red herring – it looks like a turf war, and English-language SA poets are fighting to keep Krog from fishing in their pond.

As de Kok suggests, there is a &quot;perhaps-understandable […] battle for scarce resources&quot; -  &quot;a lamentable attitude&quot; that will lead to an &quot;impoverishment of the culture.&quot;

If we are to understand the issue in terms of the &quot;turf war&quot; metaphor, then let&#039;s start by looking at the stakes – what IN FACT are they fighting over? Never mind issues of poetics or literary borrowing – these are the hand-guns and zip-knives of the war – the real, material stakes are:
*  publication;
*  money;
*  repute (fame);
*  literary prizes and awards;
*  invitations to address local and overseas conferences and symposia;
*  residencies in universities, or soft-job honorary professorships;
*  the respect that the above generate;
and, finally (and perhaps not least important)
*  immortality.

Krog, in the world of Afrikaans poetry, has garnered her fair share, some would say more than her fair share, of all of the above. While she has certainly deserved much of it, it would be naïve to say that the scant resources available are dished out purely in terms of merit. Krog is arguably the most astute mover in the world of SA poetic politics, and the logic of the thing is the logic of fame – the more you get, the more you get. But there is a ceiling for any truly ambitious local working in Afrikaans. Like Wal-Mart or the dealer on the corner, to make it really big you have to move beyond the &#039;hood. Krog&#039;s shift into the international world, at first in prose, was met with harsh criticism from the Afrikaner establishment, who felt, it seems, that she was abandoning and betraying them. Now, with the publication of &quot;The Stars Say Tsau&quot; and, more recently, &quot;Body Bereft&quot;,  she has expanded her operation into the territory of poets writing in English.

Those defending their turf (Stephen Watson, Chris Mann, Sarah Rudin, Stephen Grey)  are all reputable, prize-winning poets. Wars are always lamentable, and there are always casualties. In this case it is reputation and the above list at stake, as they (perhaps unconsciously) see it. Perhaps they are fighting their own potential impoverishment, should the attractor that is Krog gain momentum in the limited world of South African poetry,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IT&#8217;S A TURF WAR, AFTER ALL</p>
<p>Trying to reconcile the two articles on Krog in the M&amp;G this week, I was forced to the following conclusion: The issue of plagiarism is a red herring – it looks like a turf war, and English-language SA poets are fighting to keep Krog from fishing in their pond.</p>
<p>As de Kok suggests, there is a &#8220;perhaps-understandable […] battle for scarce resources&#8221; &#8211;  &#8220;a lamentable attitude&#8221; that will lead to an &#8220;impoverishment of the culture.&#8221;</p>
<p>If we are to understand the issue in terms of the &#8220;turf war&#8221; metaphor, then let&#8217;s start by looking at the stakes – what IN FACT are they fighting over? Never mind issues of poetics or literary borrowing – these are the hand-guns and zip-knives of the war – the real, material stakes are:<br />
*  publication;<br />
*  money;<br />
*  repute (fame);<br />
*  literary prizes and awards;<br />
*  invitations to address local and overseas conferences and symposia;<br />
*  residencies in universities, or soft-job honorary professorships;<br />
*  the respect that the above generate;<br />
and, finally (and perhaps not least important)<br />
*  immortality.</p>
<p>Krog, in the world of Afrikaans poetry, has garnered her fair share, some would say more than her fair share, of all of the above. While she has certainly deserved much of it, it would be naïve to say that the scant resources available are dished out purely in terms of merit. Krog is arguably the most astute mover in the world of SA poetic politics, and the logic of the thing is the logic of fame – the more you get, the more you get. But there is a ceiling for any truly ambitious local working in Afrikaans. Like Wal-Mart or the dealer on the corner, to make it really big you have to move beyond the &#8216;hood. Krog&#8217;s shift into the international world, at first in prose, was met with harsh criticism from the Afrikaner establishment, who felt, it seems, that she was abandoning and betraying them. Now, with the publication of &#8220;The Stars Say Tsau&#8221; and, more recently, &#8220;Body Bereft&#8221;,  she has expanded her operation into the territory of poets writing in English.</p>
<p>Those defending their turf (Stephen Watson, Chris Mann, Sarah Rudin, Stephen Grey)  are all reputable, prize-winning poets. Wars are always lamentable, and there are always casualties. In this case it is reputation and the above list at stake, as they (perhaps unconsciously) see it. Perhaps they are fighting their own potential impoverishment, should the attractor that is Krog gain momentum in the limited world of South African poetry,</p>
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		<title>By: pointed</title>
		<link>http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/comment-page-1/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>pointed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 18:39:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/#comment-44</guid>
		<description>I have read with interest and sympathy Ingrid de Kok&#039;s article in the Mail &amp; Guardian (In Antjie Krog&#039;s Corner, Mail &amp; Guardian 17 March) and agree with almost every sentence she sets down. But where I disagree is in her assertion, following others, that the evidence of unacknowledged lifting from Hughes hinges on the phrase: &quot;unit of the imagination&quot;. Consider the following:

&quot;It reconciles the contradictions of these two worlds in a workable fashion and holds the way open between them.&quot;
Krog

&quot;it reconciles their contradictions in a workable fashion and holds the way open between them&quot;
Hughes

Krog said that the suggestion of plagiarism was absurd. She had not seen or read Hughes&#039;s piece before writing Country of My Skull, she said.

I am concerned that Krog&#039;s strategy may in the face of the purported evidence may not be the best one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have read with interest and sympathy Ingrid de Kok&#8217;s article in the Mail &amp; Guardian (In Antjie Krog&#8217;s Corner, Mail &amp; Guardian 17 March) and agree with almost every sentence she sets down. But where I disagree is in her assertion, following others, that the evidence of unacknowledged lifting from Hughes hinges on the phrase: &#8220;unit of the imagination&#8221;. Consider the following:</p>
<p>&#8220;It reconciles the contradictions of these two worlds in a workable fashion and holds the way open between them.&#8221;<br />
Krog</p>
<p>&#8220;it reconciles their contradictions in a workable fashion and holds the way open between them&#8221;<br />
Hughes</p>
<p>Krog said that the suggestion of plagiarism was absurd. She had not seen or read Hughes&#8217;s piece before writing Country of My Skull, she said.</p>
<p>I am concerned that Krog&#8217;s strategy may in the face of the purported evidence may not be the best one.</p>
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		<title>By: precision</title>
		<link>http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/comment-page-1/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>precision</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 12:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My answer to MFB &#039;s last question is  yes (paranoid) but  when Shaun de Waal claims that Watson unlike Krog does not clearly credit the original Bushmen storytellers and in the  pages of his book gives no information on them., one is forced to  wonder about the &#039;in depth&#039; coverage  - or are the critics now plagiuarising each other and unfortunately someone forgot to read the book?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My answer to MFB &#8216;s last question is  yes (paranoid) but  when Shaun de Waal claims that Watson unlike Krog does not clearly credit the original Bushmen storytellers and in the  pages of his book gives no information on them., one is forced to  wonder about the &#8216;in depth&#8217; coverage  &#8211; or are the critics now plagiuarising each other and unfortunately someone forgot to read the book?</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun de Waal</title>
		<link>http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/comment-page-1/#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun de Waal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/#comment-42</guid>
		<description>MFB said on March 6 that the Mail &amp; Guardian is the paper making the most fuss of the Krog plagiarism business. &quot;Janus&quot; has responded, but I&#039;d like to point out that our coverage has been an attempt to discuss the issue in depth, and is in part a response to the Sunday Times&#039;s rather sensationalist and superficial coverage. Also, he/she/it refers to me as the M&amp;G&#039;s &quot;movie editor&quot;, which I am (though perhaps &quot;film critic&quot; is more accurate), but I was also its literary editor for 15 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MFB said on March 6 that the Mail &amp; Guardian is the paper making the most fuss of the Krog plagiarism business. &#8220;Janus&#8221; has responded, but I&#8217;d like to point out that our coverage has been an attempt to discuss the issue in depth, and is in part a response to the Sunday Times&#8217;s rather sensationalist and superficial coverage. Also, he/she/it refers to me as the M&amp;G&#8217;s &#8220;movie editor&#8221;, which I am (though perhaps &#8220;film critic&#8221; is more accurate), but I was also its literary editor for 15 years.</p>
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		<title>By: pointed</title>
		<link>http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/comment-page-1/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>pointed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 12:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/#comment-40</guid>
		<description>In his introduction to SLOW LEARNER Pynchon writes:

Fascinating topic, literary theft. As in the penal code,
there are degrees. These range from plagiarism down to
only being derivative, but all are forms of wrong procedure.

If, on the other hand, you believe that nothing is
original and that all writers &quot;borrow&quot; from &quot;sources,&quot;
there still remains the question of credit lines or acknowledgements.
It wasn&#039;t till &quot;Under the Rose&quot; (1959) that
I could bring myself, even indirectly, to credit guidebook
eponym Karl Baedeker, whose guide to Egypt for 1899
was the major &quot;source&quot; for the story.

Could I, even as I laid down cash for it at the cash register,
have been subconsciously planning to loot this faded red
volume for the contents of a story?
Could Willy Sutton rob a safe? Loot the Baedeker I
did, all the details of a time and place I had never been
to, right down to the names of the diplomatic corps.
Who&#039;d make up a name like Khevenhüller-Metsch? Lest
others become as enchanted as I was and have continued
to be with this technique, let me point out that it is a
lousy way to go about writing a story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In his introduction to SLOW LEARNER Pynchon writes:</p>
<p>Fascinating topic, literary theft. As in the penal code,<br />
there are degrees. These range from plagiarism down to<br />
only being derivative, but all are forms of wrong procedure.</p>
<p>If, on the other hand, you believe that nothing is<br />
original and that all writers &#8220;borrow&#8221; from &#8220;sources,&#8221;<br />
there still remains the question of credit lines or acknowledgements.<br />
It wasn&#8217;t till &#8220;Under the Rose&#8221; (1959) that<br />
I could bring myself, even indirectly, to credit guidebook<br />
eponym Karl Baedeker, whose guide to Egypt for 1899<br />
was the major &#8220;source&#8221; for the story.</p>
<p>Could I, even as I laid down cash for it at the cash register,<br />
have been subconsciously planning to loot this faded red<br />
volume for the contents of a story?<br />
Could Willy Sutton rob a safe? Loot the Baedeker I<br />
did, all the details of a time and place I had never been<br />
to, right down to the names of the diplomatic corps.<br />
Who&#8217;d make up a name like Khevenhüller-Metsch? Lest<br />
others become as enchanted as I was and have continued<br />
to be with this technique, let me point out that it is a<br />
lousy way to go about writing a story.</p>
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		<title>By: precision</title>
		<link>http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/comment-page-1/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>precision</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 13:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Prtecision: My point is that since  Krog describes them as poets, she must treat them as poets which generally means to ensure that one&#039;s name is significantly smaller than theirs on the cover and extreme caution not to impose oneself  onto  the original.    And  I agree, citing freedom from copyright at a colonised people while one uses their material is   crass .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prtecision: My point is that since  Krog describes them as poets, she must treat them as poets which generally means to ensure that one&#8217;s name is significantly smaller than theirs on the cover and extreme caution not to impose oneself  onto  the original.    And  I agree, citing freedom from copyright at a colonised people while one uses their material is   crass .</p>
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		<title>By: precision</title>
		<link>http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/comment-page-1/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>precision</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 12:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Could anyone inform me which, if any,  of these cruticisms of Watson&#039;s work (apart from  that of Anne Gagiano) have been published during the 15 years prior to his review of Krog?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could anyone inform me which, if any,  of these cruticisms of Watson&#8217;s work (apart from  that of Anne Gagiano) have been published during the 15 years prior to his review of Krog?</p>
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		<title>By: pointed</title>
		<link>http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>pointed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 06:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/#comment-36</guid>
		<description>Some points not raised:
* the /Xam testimonies were/are not &#039;poetry&#039; as we understand the term;
* none of them, or their descendants, are around to collect the money, repute, critical acclaim etc that the poetic publications generate - so what does it matter if they are accredited - the poet and publisher will pick up the spoils;
* archaeologists (Lewis-Williams, Deacon, even Pippa Skotnes) have been careful not to appropriate cash along with their apropriation of the materials - unlike Krog or Watson - profits go to Rock-art foundation, Bushman centre etc;
* the Hughes estate is still around. Has there been any comment from them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some points not raised:<br />
* the /Xam testimonies were/are not &#8216;poetry&#8217; as we understand the term;<br />
* none of them, or their descendants, are around to collect the money, repute, critical acclaim etc that the poetic publications generate &#8211; so what does it matter if they are accredited &#8211; the poet and publisher will pick up the spoils;<br />
* archaeologists (Lewis-Williams, Deacon, even Pippa Skotnes) have been careful not to appropriate cash along with their apropriation of the materials &#8211; unlike Krog or Watson &#8211; profits go to Rock-art foundation, Bushman centre etc;<br />
* the Hughes estate is still around. Has there been any comment from them?</p>
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		<title>By: precision</title>
		<link>http://www.resistentialists.com/2006/02/27/plagiarism-3/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>precision</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 09:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don&#039;t want to belabour the point but your amnesia about the use of the word suggests to me  that it is   worth persuing a little further. I doubt very much that you would call on an selector/editor of  western  poets to minimise or downplay their role on the cover - or even to compare them using this criterion.  It  would surely  be regarded as  patronising.   The standard protocol  appears to be that the name of the selector/translator/editor  is printed smaller than the poet&#039;s  or it  may even  be entirely absent from the cover. This  is the case in every book  on my shelf apart from Krog&#039;s book. If we are speaking past each other it is because I am more interested in the way each selector/translator/editor deals with indigenous voices than in comparing them to each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t want to belabour the point but your amnesia about the use of the word suggests to me  that it is   worth persuing a little further. I doubt very much that you would call on an selector/editor of  western  poets to minimise or downplay their role on the cover &#8211; or even to compare them using this criterion.  It  would surely  be regarded as  patronising.   The standard protocol  appears to be that the name of the selector/translator/editor  is printed smaller than the poet&#8217;s  or it  may even  be entirely absent from the cover. This  is the case in every book  on my shelf apart from Krog&#8217;s book. If we are speaking past each other it is because I am more interested in the way each selector/translator/editor deals with indigenous voices than in comparing them to each other.</p>
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